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In the fifth episode of Short Hand, we’re delving into the casting process and asking casting director Hannah Marie Williams (Dawn in the Dark, The Last Days), directors Nadia Latif (White Girl, They Heard Him Shout Allahu Akbar) and Fateme Ahmadi (Chandra, Bitter Sea) and Independent Talent agent Deborah Willey for their perspectives on how to cast your short film.  

Topics covered include: at what stage you should be bringing on a casting director, finding chemistry with your casting director, how long the audition process takes, how you approach agents, how you know you’ve found the right actor, how hands-on the director is and working with younger or child actors. 

I think that you have to go into every casting process with an open heart and open mind, but equally know what’s important to you. The more I do projects, the more I’m quite uncompromising on the things that I know that I need. And I think that you should just put yourself through as much process as you have to. Don’t give up until you find exactly the right actor, because they are out there.

Nadia latif

SHOW NOTES & RESOURCES

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Short Hand: Hello, you’re listening to Short Hand – a guide to making a short film – a BFI NETWORK and Film Hub South East podcast. Whether you’re actively making a short film or passively thinking about it, this is a podcast designed to help you on the journey from coming up with a compelling short film idea to editing it into a finished product. In this episode, we’re going to be talking about casting. You’ll hear from directors, a casting director, and an agent about how to find the right actors to help you tell your story.

Hannah Marie Williams: So as a casting director, I usually come on board in the pre-production stage, usually when a project is financed, or part-financed. So you might get some funding from the BFI or another public funding body. And then we do that last bit of top-up with a Kickstarter or something like that. You can approach a casting director at that stage, if you’re not fully-funded, but you have some money in the bank. I don’t usually come on board projects before they apply for funding. I would say now more so because I’ve done quite a lot of shorts, I am looking for projects that are fully-funded in order for me to say right, we’re ready to go, let’s hit the ground running. But that’s not to say that you shouldn’t approach me if you’re not at that stage yet.

Short Hand: That’s Hannah Marie Williams, a casting director who’s worked on BFI NETWORK-supported short films such as ‘Dawn in the Dark’, ‘The Arborist’, ‘The Last Days’ and ‘Reflection.’ You’re about to hear her discuss why she decides to work on certain projects, the materials that might entice her to do so and the kinds of conversations she’s having with the director, and or producer to determine what they’re looking for.

Hannah Marie Williams: I get drawn to short films for a lot of reasons. And it’s made it very difficult for me to turn down short films, when we’re working on longer form projects now. I am looking for projects overall that have something to say. And that have really rich characters or worlds that they’re trying to portray. And I find that there’s a lot more that is being done in short films that maybe isn’t being done yet, in longer form projects, at least the ones that I’m being approached with. So yeah, what entices me to work on a short film is the script, but it can be the team. Mostly it is really what is the project about, what are we trying to say? And why is that important? And can I give something to that process to make it something special, I really love to be sent a script and a treatment and any references so we can understand tone, and place. But also, I really like to be sent references for actors, even if they’re completely out of reach. But it’s really good for me to know what your taste is and where your eye is going. It’s all about tone. And for us to be able to understand who is this character? How do they interact with other people, we might not be able to get your reference for you. But I’ve got in my back pocket, a list of 20, 30, 40 other actors who are of a similar vein, that then we can start looking at and start availability checking. So yeah, I like to be sent the treatment references and really dive into the world with you, in order to be able to understand where your mind is.

That process for me is the most important part of the discovery of what we’re making is yeah, just trying to understand what’s going on in the director’s head. When we come on to a project, we are having a couple of different conversations. Sometimes they happen in one meeting. I might get brought on by the producer and so we naturally talk about their constraints around budget, logistics, you know, all of that stuff. And then I speak to the director about the creative or the other way around. So whether it happens in one conversation or two separate conversations, those are the things that we’re really trying to understand. What are the parameters in which we’re working in? And what do we need to bear in mind that is really going to dictate the level of talent that we’re going to be able to go to for? And then we speak to the director about the creative and you know, how far can we push the character? Like how restrictive do we need to be through those series of conversations, what our parameters are, what are our non-negotiables? What are the things that are really important? And that we need to make sure that we are providing in our suggestions because that is, essentially the casting director’s job is to understand what you need as a director or as a producer and go and find it, and then give you the best options whilst also maybe changing your perspective, or you’re widening those parameters just a little bit.

So we start by understanding all of that. And then we go out, and we find the options. And that’s done through a myriad of different things. So we might take your reference that we spoke about in our initial conversations. And we might find, you know, 20 different actors who are similar to that, who are more within the range of what we’re looking at. And we’ll availability check them, we’ll pull together those, we’ll find more suggestions, we’ll go to all the different places that we’re going to find talent, pull them all together, and then we’ll start going through the initial round of ideas. And then we’ll have time for adjustments. So to make sure that we haven’t missed anything out in what we’re suggesting. And then by that point, hopefully, we’ve got a good amount of people that we all like, and then we start to decide what are we going to do with those people? Are we going to audition them? Are we going to just meet them for a chat? Are we going to send people offers? If anybody’s got profile we have to send them offers. So we decide what we’re going to do with the people that we’ve got as available and potentially interested from that stage.

Short Hand: Next up, Hannah talks about whether you should be looking to attain higher profile actors in order to increase the exposure for your short film, or whether you’re better off auditioning lesser known actors to find exactly the right person for the part. She also touches on the all important question of fees, and how much you should be paying your actors and your casting director.

Hannah Marie Williams: Whenever we’re working on short films, that’s a little bit of a dance that we have to play. Because if we’re working on something with a bit more budget, or something with a bit more wealth of credits behind, you know, the crew that we’ve got attached, we can go after actors with more profile and know that we will likely get somebody who’s got profile so we can work through those offers. But if we’re working on a short film, and we don’t have those resources available to us and the previous experience to sell the project, we need to do both at the same time. So when I say both, we need to maybe go after actors with profile and send offers. But we also need to make sure that we’re auditioning people as well, so that we’ve got people in our back pocket. So it really depends, basically, you might be working on a short film, and you really want to attach somebody who’s recognisable or you really want somebody who’s got like a certain level of experience. So you might be just sending offers out to actors and hoping that somebody will do it for you. But I just think it’s a really good idea to also be auditioning at the same time. So you can see who’s out there. And you might just change your mind as well, you might get somebody who’s brand new who can do the job better than the person with loads of experience and profile.

Fees is a conversation that we have right at the top of getting involved in a project. For actors, I won’t work on a project now that pays anything less than equity minimum. And that’s what everyone should be aiming for. Equity is the actor’s union in the UK, and they set the standardised rates, and it goes up incrementally based on the size of the project. So for a short film equity minimum is £161, which includes holiday, per day. So I will only work on projects now that pay equity minimum and that’s what you should all be aiming for. In terms of a casting director fee, we’re Head of Departments. So you know, whatever you’re paying any other Heads of Department, you should be putting that in the budget for your casting director as well. And it’s a conversation, like I know that a short film can’t pay me a lot. But as I say, I’ll get involved in a project if it has something special to say and I like the team. So offer as much as you can, obviously without jeopardising other elements of the creative.

Short Hand: Finally, Hannah offers her advice for filmmakers embarking on the casting process and why casting the smaller characters is just as important as your leads.

Hannah Marie Williams: I think having an open mind to the casting process is one of the most important things that I could say, and trying to think about what you’re trying to say. But also like who else could say that thing? I think a lot of times when I work with new filmmakers, there are trope-y things written into characters and also don’t throw away your smaller characters. You know, your leads are obviously very important. And I know we’re only telling a really short story, but there can be some real nice texture and richness that is found in those really smaller roles. So, take your time with all of that stuff as well. The main thing is when you’re in the audition process to take your time and not rush through that because you can miss things in the audition process that can not be great on set. So if you’re not sure, do another test, see them again, see another tape, see something else or keep looking.

Nadia Latif: The majority of my experience with casting directors has been amazing and actually it makes me really sad that like the film gets cast or the show gets cast or whatever and then you never see them again. You sometimes spent like weeks and months together like absolutely finessing what are the kind of language of the project is going to be.

Short Hand: The voice you’re hearing now belongs to Nadia Latif, a theatre-maker, screenwriter and film director whose short film credits include the BFI NETWORK-backed ‘White Girl’, and a Film4-funded short called ‘They Heard Him Shout Allah Akbar’, as part of the Foresight anthology. Nadia joins us to talk about her experiences working with casting directors and why it’s important to find one with whom you share chemistry and values.

Nadia Latif: I actually think that the chemistry between you and your casting director is like the chemistry between you and your DOP or you Art Director. It’s a really important thing to get, right. And I’ve definitely had negative experiences, like I’ve had experiences where I haven’t appreciated how that casting director talks to actors. And actually, that casting director is an extension of your work and your sort of reputation within the industry. So I sort of feel like you need to work with casting directors that have the same values as you. And I think often, I’m quite generous with my time in that, like, I’m like, we should see an actor, even if we think they like may not be quite right. My opinion of casting is that you should always give them a positive experience, like they’ve given up their time, they’ve prepared all the things like it’s your job to, like, respond to that energy and to be like, you know, thank you. And that was amazing. And actually, let’s work together. And you know, you never know, I’ve had countless past experiences where they haven’t been right for that project. And then for the next project, I’ve just called them up and been like, dude you want to come and do this thing? Because you absolutely nailed that quality in that audition for that other project?

I think the thing is, with casting directors is directing is really just being a, you know, question-and-answerer-in-chief, I think that’s what Ava DuVernay calls it. And I think that particularly the first thing, like you need to make sure that you have given as much of your kind of vision of the project to that person. Otherwise, you’re both going to waste each other’s time and they’re going to be bringing in the wrong actors and you’re both going to be getting annoyed, because you know that they’re not right for the part. And I think that you have to not micro-manage a casting director, do you know what I mean? You have to be like, I trust that you will bring me the type of actors that I’m interested in. And I’ve very rarely been disappointed. I think they’re amazing people casting directors, and I think they don’t get nearly enough credit for what they do. I’m quite a Zen person in that I believe that any project is about people, generally, it’s just the people you work with. So once you’ve put those people in place, in essence, the project is already complete, it’s your job to just enable those people to be their best selves. And so I feel like, you know, casting directors’ ability to position those people, and then, you know, this amazing film kind of happens. Well, yeah, hat’s thanks to them, you know, like, they did that for you.

Short Hand: In the next segment, Nadia talks us through what’s important to her as the director when working with actors, what she’s looking for in an actor and their performance, and the approach she takes in the casting process.

Nadia Latif: So I think when I’m working with the casting director, the big difference is, initially, whether I’ve written it or not, because I think if I’ve written it, then I’ve often thought about who my ideal cast might be, whether I can get them or not, like they could be crazy famous. But it’s just helpful to think about the type of actor that you’re reaching for, or the type of performance. But I think that you have to go into every casting process with an open heart and open mind, but equally know what’s important to you. And I feel like actually, the more I do projects, the more I’m quite uncompromising on the things that I know that I need. And I think that you should just put yourself through as much process as you have to. Don’t give up until you find exactly the right actor, because they are out there. There’s loads of amazing actors. You can begin to feel quite panicked quite quickly, like, oh, no, you know, I haven’t found them on in the first week. You know, I just completed a 10-week casting process to get six actors and it’s brilliant. On the last day, we found the perfect actor for the final role, and that’s how it works. You just keep going to find a person who’s right for the project.

I think the thing that is important to me, and I’m somebody who obviously, my background is in theatre before I moved into film, is that I’m interested in a very muscular actor, not literally, physically, as in the way that they work is really rigorous. And I expect them to be like a very imaginative actor as well, because I think particularly when you’re on a film set, like a lot of time, I don’t have a huge amount of time to prep. And I will work a lot with imaginative improvisation. And you need an actor who can do that, who’s simply up for that process. And that’s not even necessarily an experience thing. Because sometimes you’ll meet like a very unexperienced actor, but actually, that’s just like, naturally how they work. And you’ll meet very experienced actors who know what they want to do. And they just want to turn up on set and say the words, both are fully legit, but I think that I find all the kind of like waiting around on a film set, like fairly anxiety-inducing still. So I need to know that I’m going to be [working with] an actor who is constantly asking themselves questions and asking me questions, and then just like doing imaginative work, so they’re offering you something different with every take. I get really bummed out by actors who are trying to perfect a performance take-to-take, whereas actually I think you should always be asking yourself questions. And I’m always asking myself questions, and then you’re creating just like a much more kind of fluid evolving process as you’re directing a scene.

So, I am a really hands-on director when it comes to the casting process, like there is no tape that I haven’t watched. I’m suggesting actors constantly, I’m watching things that will hopefully inspire me. I keep little lists all the time of actors. And I’m like, oh, you know what, maybe one day I’ll work with them. And they could be real small players, but you’re still like, you know, they were great. Also, again, because I’ve got a theatre background, I’ve worked with a lot of actors in my time. And so I’m sort of quite good at like, calling on people from the reserves of my imagination. Yeah, I’m very, very hands on. I think it’s sort of your job as a member of the community to get actors seen, do you know what I mean? And to feel like they are kind of entering your worldview and kind of entering your palate. I’ve got dear dear collaborators where the first audition I ever gave them, I didn’t give them the job, but we’re working together 10 years later and have been working consistently over that time.

So I sort of think that’s part of your job with somebody who has like a lot of power, to be like actually, I will go outside of, you know, I’m never going to be one of the directors who’s like, Oh, I’ve got a kind of stable of actors. I want to find the most perfect, most random person down the back of the sofa. And I think particularly when I’ve done projects that involve younger actors, I have really gone out of my way to be like, I will see dozens and dozens of candidates, because those people are going to work for a long time. And maybe I’m going to want to keep working with them. I actually think it’s really simple to find the actor you want to work with. And to me, it’s about how they respond to a note, do you know what I mean? So it’s why I think I personally find it very hard to cast like a substantial role off of just a self tape. I do have to get in a room with somebody or on a zoom or whatever. Because to me, it’s less about the performance they give. And it’s more about their ability to change that performance. Because I think sometimes you get an actor who gives a good performance of a performance. But actually, you then get into the kind of liveness of you know, like rehearsing something and changing something and putting them against different actors. And you suddenly go. ‘Ah, no, you had one performance of this, and actually, you’re not able to modulate it.’ So, my thing is always, you’ve got to test somebody’s ability to hear a new piece of information, and then modulate their performance. And it doesn’t even have to be the most perfect version of that. But my thing is like, I’d rather have somebody who’s like strong but wrong, like you can see them kind of swinging for the edges. And it’s like, oh, it was kind of crazy. But actually, you totally got that there was like a change being asked of you.

Short Hand: Nadia then dives a bit deep into the casting process for ‘White Girl’ and how looking for young actors impacted the process, as well as why it’s important to find the right casting director for the specific needs of your project.

Nadia Latif: I think when we were casting ‘White Girl’, it’s really interesting, because that part is for a 15-year-old girl, and we saw loads of 15-year-old girls. In fact, one of them ended up in the film, although not in the lead part. And actually, we ended up going with somebody who was slightly older, I think she was maybe 19 at the time that we shot it or maybe just about to turn 20. And that was again because of the kind of actor question, like actually, what is your ability to modulate a performance over, in our case, five days? And I was sort of reminded of something that Lee Daniels said about the film ‘Precious’, which I don’t think is a great film, but I think this is a really interesting point, where he’s like, you know, ‘we saw 1000 girls who were Precious, like they had lived her life experience. And then we realised we needed an actor.’ Because actually, it’s not necessarily always helpful to have somebody who is like, too embedded in the similarity between the character and themselves. Sometimes you need somebody who’s able to like, step back and go, this is a performance, I understand it, I understand that, although it may feel truer to me to do X, the story is doing Y and I need to get how I’m going to connect those two points.

And so, you know, the actor that we ended up working with was a little bit older, she was somebody I’d worked with on a on a stage show before as well. But actually, the thing that I appreciate is that she got that it was like a piece of fiction, do you know what I mean? Because the film’s quite distressing, we did have questions about, you know, somebody being too young to understand that as well. And actually, you know, I think originally the part was written for a kind of 12-year-old and I think we just had to ask ourselves, like, there was a lot of kind of messing around and entrails and things like that. And actually, just about the kind of responsibility for that. And whether it was worth it to go for somebody that young and we decided it wasn’t.

I don’t think I behave massively differently with young people. I think it’s a bit of a misconception that they need to be treated differently. I think everybody should be treated with equal dignity and care. Like, I think we should treat everyone in a glorious way. I think that young people are much more adult than people give them credit for. And I think we treat some adult actors like idiot babies do you know what I mean? Like, I think there should be a lovely, medium, decent way to treat everyone. And I think part of that is, you know, empowering young people to feel like, actually, I’m giving a full performance, I’m not being treated like a child, I’m a full professional who’s being paid to be here. But also then sort of, you know, when you’re shooting a film at 2am in February, and it’s like freezing cold outside being like, actually, you know, what is the level of sort of care that we have to give to this person? I’m just as robust when it comes to casting young people because I think they can take it and in a way, I think that they’re much better at responding to, I could change an idea and you go ‘Hey man, what if we did this scene differently?’ I’ve always found that they’re much more like, ‘Yes, let’s, let’s just try it. And let’s like not worry about it.’ I love working with young people.

It’s a very provocative bit of casting. I think somebody said about that character, if you ask how old she is, you’re already in trouble. And actually working with somebody who was slightly older was helpful for that. And they could understand things like, like, why her kind of costuming was like slightly provocative, but also childish. And actually, she had a lot of agency with that as well and be like, Okay, I get it. I’ve also been 15 before, and I’m no longer 15. So I can look back at that point in my life and go, Well, what did I know and what didn’t I know. And that was a really helpful thing, like her and the costume designer built that whole look together. And actually, I think that if I’d cast the young person, they might have been like, a little bit too, like willing.

And I think the other thing to consider is that, you know, I’m doing a film, a historical drama set in the 1960s in Birmingham, and that’s going to need a huge amount of community casting. And, you know, it’s set in a kind of Punjabi community and Afro-Caribbean community. I think a film like ‘Rocks’ becoming as sort of celebrated as it was, really highlighted the work of casting directors doing that kind of work. When you’re putting together untrained actors, who might community members, what happens when you put them at that level of like, work, but also of kind of exposure? These things are really, softly, softly catchy monkey, and it’s really skilled work to be able to do that. And actually, you know, not all casting directors can do that. I would say that for some casting directors that is their real strength. And there are other casting directors who can go and like, net, you the big fish, and you’re like ‘Great, thanks.’ You know, which is why I think, it may not be like a one casting director fits all kind of thing, actually, like, sometimes you’re like, what does the project need?

Deborah Willey: For me, personally, I think it’s always better to come at the stage where you’ve got dates locked. It’s much easier for someone to commit that way. It’s much cleaner. Either they can do it, or they can’t do it. It can be a bit ambivalent, where it’s like, ‘oh, we’re shooting in April’, and they’re asking for an actor with particularly limited availability, it just becomes impossible to work it out. In terms of funding, come when you’ve got the money rather than then at that stage where you don’t it, because again, it’s like, well, that can happen at any time in the future, it can take too long. Short films always feel quite immediate. It’s like radio. People check your clients availability for radio, they come through two days later and book them for dates like three weeks away, and it just like you know, that they can fit it in, and it’s much easier. Rather than sitting on dates that like might be 6, 7, 8 months away in the hope that someone’s gonna get some money.

Short Hand: That’s Deborah Willey, an agent with Independent Talent who has been representing actors for almost two decades. Here, she provides some insight into when and how to approach agents when you’re casting your short film, whether you should be sending anything more than a script and why actors might be interested in working on your short film.

Deborah Willey: In terms of how people should approach, I can only speak for myself. I just really like a very simple clean email, here are my dates, here’s the offer. Quite often, people will ask if someone or you know, a number of clients, or a particular client, you know, individually would be interested in a project without an offer. And they sort of want us to ask, you know, would they be interested? I sort of think to myself, ‘Why is it impossible for people to put themselves in the actors position?’ Like think if the shoe was on the other foot? How would you feel being asked if you might like to do something that you then take time to think about? You might go away and read something, you might sort of mentally rearrange your life in order to fit something in? And then you go, Yes, I am interested only to then be like, told that it? Well, no, we don’t want you anyway. Just come through with the offer, particularly if it’s an established actor.

Just send a script, like I don’t need anything else. Sometimes people will send like a whacking great, like attachment that’s got a mood board, which is fine. But again, that’s not that’s not for my benefit, that’s for the actor. It doesn’t make me think, ‘oh my gosh, I’ve got to send this on’, or ‘Oh, my God, I’m not going to send this on because it doesn’t have it’. Ultimately, an actor is going to choose to do a short film because, well, there are loads of reasons why they might decide to do a short film. But having a tonne of accompanying materials is isn’t going to swing it, it’s not going to be a reason why they do it or not.

In truth, I think that short films, and again, this is only my perspective, I can’t speak for all agents, this is only my opinion, I’ve always sort of thought that short films are more about directors, they’re more for directors than they are for actors. If an actor is straight out of the gate, and they’ve got no experience on camera, then short films are really, really useful. They’re really great for learning about, who’s who and what goes where and who goes where. I always think this must be every actor’s nightmare is like having to do one line on a Tom Cruise film. And now they turn up and it’s like their first job and they’ve got, you know, every hour of film, or every minute that they’re on set is like $100,000, or something stupid, and they just comes to their moment, and they’re just so overwhelmed by everything, they can’t do it. So in those instances, I’m like, get all the experience, you can learn about being on a set and short films are brilliant for doing that. I think in many ways for those younger actors, it doesn’t really matter what the script is, doesn’t matter what the project is, within reason. It’s about more than that.

I think for established actors, it’s a different conversation, if they don’t really need to be doing short films, then it’s just more about whether they fancy it or not. I think it’s quite rare for more established actors to take a short film because they love the part. It’s going to be what, five minutes of film or ten minutes or, you know, tops twenty. It’s not going to be something where they can really, really get their teeth into it. So it really does just become about like practical choices of, of sort of thinking, ‘Oh, well, that fits in between, you know, these, these two gigs I’m doing. I fancy a trip to the seaside or wherever this location is’ or, you know, ‘I’m just happy to do a favour for a friend’ and like fancy flexing a different muscle. You know, it just could be so many reasons. I don’t know how you can assess really, if something is worth working on and what that conversation is about, particularly with younger actors, you think everything is worth working on. Because it’s all good experience, and it’s all really, really helpful. But for somebody a bit further down the line, it really just is about what they want to do. Every job has its merits. You know, sometimes actors just want to work. I’ve had several clients n the last year or two, do way more short films than they would ordinarily have done because obviously, we’ve been in quite unusual circumstances. And so actually, for them, it just became about, like I say, sort of flexing that muscle and being able to still feel like you’re an actor.

Short Hand: Next up, Deborah talks about approaching more than one actor on an agent’s list, and other tips she has for navigating the relationship with an agent.

Deborah Willey: You can’t navigate that conversation in any other way other than by offering it to one person at a time. You know, if that person says no, or they’re not available, move on to the next person, but never ever, ever, ever offer anything to more than one actor a time. No good can come with this. I’ve seen this happen on emails that come in, it’s like they’re offering two clients or, you know, two or three clients the same job, you know, all these clients might know each other, they might be really good friends. And, you know, in the unlikely scenario of Ian McKellen saying that, yes, he’d like to do this short film that has also been offered to I mean, for want of a better example, Patrick Stewart, it’s like so what is it? Who’s going to call first? Like, what if they both really wanted to do it? How does that work out? You know, what do you do? Like think about it? You know, of course, you would hate to say yes to a job, only to find that your best friend was offered it at the same time or your arch-enemy. You know, the actor that you always go up against was offered it at the same time, and they just call back first, you’d be absolutely furious about that.

I think in terms of navigating that relationship, it’s like, like, don’t ask, experienced actors to tape, that always just feels really wrong. And if you don’t know who they are, then it’s your job to do your homework. Like if you don’t know somebody who’s been working for 40 years, you want them to be in your short film, but you want to make them jump through hoops. It’s like, just educate yourself on this person’s back catalogue, like, don’t make them tape for a five minute short. It’s completely disrespectful, and it’s really irritating. And I think it’s the first hurdle to fall at. I would always offer travel and accommodation, if you’re not in London, or you know, you’re filming somewhere, and your actor doesn’t live in London or wherever, like, just offer it.  And make sure that it’s not, you know, staying in your mum’s spare room or something weird. Not that your mum’s spare room is weird, but somewhere that is professional and feels neutral, and right and proper. And the other thing is, if you’ve got no budget, just be upfront about it. Like don’t get, you know, 10 emails down the line, and then just sort of come clean and say you’ve got no money, just be completely upfront with everything, be up front with your offer, your dates, all of the, you know, the money, all of it, just don’t hide behind anything. That’s the easiest way to do it.

Fateme Ahmadi: For the main roles, I do have a specific actors in mind when I write, there is nothing wrong with dreaming. In fact, it’s very useful because you can base personalities on real people or borrow some characteristics from them. And include those things in your script. For example, the way that they play with their hair or the way that they walk or move their hands. You bring their livelihood into your script. This way, you can develop your characters even further and make them richer, as a result, the characters will be more believable. This could also help convince the actors to say yes to you and come on board because they can hear that part in their own voice. They will be like, ‘Oh, she knows me, Fateme knows that I’m a good fit for this role. She’s written it for me.’ They could see themselves being the character, being your character. There is a downside to this though, to write for specific actors. You don’t want to be too attached to the idea of having this specific person in your film. Because if they say no, you’ll be miserable. And you’ll feel like ‘oh, my script is not castable’. If they say no, for whatever reason, then that’s not the end of the world. You could then get help from casting directors or fellow filmmakers who’ve had similar experiences. And my point is you just need to be careful when it comes to writing for specific actors.

Short Hand: And last but definitely not least, that’s Fateme Ahmadi, an award-winning writer director whose credits include Chandra and the BFI NETWORK-supported Bitter Sea, which went on to be nominated for Best British Short at the BIFA awards. Fateme starts off by discussing whether she writes scripts with specific actors in mind before talking about her different experiences casting her short films, and how she figures out if that casting director is the right person for her film.

Fateme Ahmadi: I’ve had the experience of working with casting directors on only two of my projects. My early films are all student ones and I couldn’t afford to bring on a professional casting director. In Chandra which we shot in 2014 in Kathmandu, we had a casting director when we started and with his help we kept auditioning young boys and old men who could be our ‘Chandra’ and his grandfather. But then a huge earthquake happened. And it was devastating. You know, we knew that we couldn’t shoot the film with the same actors that we had cast before. And a casting director couldn’t be much of a help. From that point. I had a co-director from Nepal on that film. So we street-cast the boy and his grandfather together. [For Bitter Sea] I needed to find a Romanian and English speaking mother and daughter and Isabella Odoffin was wonderful. She was such a joy to work with, I felt really confident when she was in the room with me, especially because we needed to audition young kids five years old, seven years old, they would cry easily, just being in a room with a stranger’s would make them cry. That made me feel terrible. Isabella [Odoffin] was there for me and she did a great job, she would calm them down.

How I figured out if they were the right person to cast my film, I did a lot of sneaky research before reaching out to anybody. I asked my fellow filmmaker friends about their experience with their own casting directors on their previous projects. And not all of them were fond of who they had worked with. Some of them had terrible experiences, to be honest. It’s a very small industry and people talk so you can easily find out all the information that you need. By just asking around everyone was saying nice things about Isabella and the first time that we met, all of that got confirmed. She was intelligent, she understood the story perfectly and liked the script very much. She was down to earth and easy to communicate with. She also had the experience and had great suggestions on how to find the right cast. So I knew it was her from the first meeting.

The conversations that I’m having to get on the same page with with my casting director; we talked with Isabella, we talked about the story a lot and also discussed the characters in detail. You want the casting director to know your characters inside out and help you find the right actors to envisage them. I also shared my look-book with her and my research. I picked her brain on my ideas, she helped me overcome some of the doubts that I had, you know, for example, I was slightly unsure about the resemblance between mother and daughter, I was always worried that the audience wouldn’t buy that she’s her daughter, because the skin tone was different, and the facial features and everything. They were two different, Isabella convinced me that it’s going to work.

Short Hand: Then Fateme expands on the challenge of finding the right actors. Why trusting your gut is the only way, auditioning and working with child actors, and how she works with actors to prepare for the shoot once they have been cast.

Fateme Ahmadi: Casting can be really fun because it means your project is finally happening and your characters are standing in front of you. How unbelievable is that? You know, and at the same time it could be scary because you might make a mistake and go for the wrong actor and everything starts to go wrong from that moment. Every single person who stands in front of you could be the one but how to know? So, it is a challenge. But I like to welcome this challenge. I learn a lot about my characters by doing the auditions and being in the room with the with the people who might fit who might fit the expectations. So yeah, it is a challenge that you know helped me grow and get better at my job. First of all, you need to be able to connect with them on a human level. I research them on my own. I also ask myself a lot of questions. Do I think they look like my character? Do I think they speak and walk like my character? Do they like the script at all? Do they understand the characters? Do I think they’re able to take directions? Can they work in a team? Are they reliable? Do they look slightly flaky? Now are they able to learn their lines, how’s their track record in the end, and all like any, it’s like any other relationship, you have to listen to your heart and trust your gut, there is no other way.

Auditioning child actors and basically having them on set is way more challenging than auditioning and working with with adults. But it’s also more rewarding. There’s something about children, which is magical and hooks the audience immediately and makes the story believable. I think you need to find a way to make the process fun for them. A bag of candy would help, but something like a game, you know, if it feels like a game to them, they’ll enjoy doing it. And if they do, you’re going to be okay, you’re good to go. Otherwise, it’s going to be a nightmare for everybody on set. On Bitter Sea, I was lucky BelleMarie. She was five and in the script the girl was also five. But normally you cast older actors who look younger than the age because they’re easier to work with. She was so talented. So we decided to go ahead with her and her family also helped us a lot. They were very supportive. I also had great assistants who made friends with BelleMarie on the first day and made the process really pleasant for everybody, including BelleMarie herself.

Once they’ve been cast, and to help them prepare for the role. I tried to get them a lot of rehearsals and workshops, from the producers we’ll have read through sessions as well. I also try to film them when we rehearse that could help make the camera invisible and make us become closer to each other. In a nutshell, they should be able to trust you and believe that you are their best ally on the set. They should feel that you’re going to protect them from everything and everybody. If things go wrong in front of the crew, you’re going to be there for them. If they feel they’re they’re safe in your hands. They can be themselves in front of the camera, and that’s when the magic happens.

Short Hand: Thank you for listening to Short Hand. Look out for a new episode next week that will focus on hiring your crew and where to find people to work on your short film. Thank you to our guests this week, Hannah Marie Williams, Nadia Latif, Deborah Willey, and Fateme Ahmadi. Short Hand is a BFI NETWORK and Film Hub South East podcast produced by Nicole Davis with support from the BFI NETWORK and ICO team. Special thanks to our editor Graciela Mae Chico and Epidemic for the music.